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@kyra said:

@beyasal said:
I also like exploring the game world, but for me continuously being in a combat situation kills off the experience while having to open the pipboy to micromanage my character does not.  I would much rather prefer considering all these factors to maximise the performance of my character than getting swamped by enemies like in fallout 4 to the point where I would yawn, open the console, type killall and continue on my merry way.
 For me , when too many things pile up breaks game flow. I do have water/food things hotkeyd, and its  less of an issue. And I am not fan of pipboy. I like healthy balance between everything. I do not mind combat, but I did originally alter spawn rates in FO4, on old survival, when new one came it actually messed up my game world to the point half map does nor re-spawn. Ever again. But then again it made game harder - less resources, and some areas spawn normal or get actually triggered outside respawn timers. I guess this glitch due to swapping between old and new survival mode for this one character has given me rather unique experience. 

 

I was using a mod that decreased the spawn rate 8x but disabled it after the new survival mode was implemented stating that spawn rates had been significantly decreased.  I'm guessing that because the previous mod used despawned everything it took some time before anything actually started showing up, except for a few locations which for some reason or other instantaneously respawn,   By that time I already had so much caps on me that lack of resources wasn't really an issue.  But it was nice being able to actually walk around the commonwealth, being able to watch the sun setting over the ruins of the city without some annoying creature jumping out of the blue, making annoying noises, and killing off that moment. After that everything started respawning much faster which was quite a shame. 


So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them


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I would love for an overhaul of the way loot spawns around the map.  I honestly don't like survival mode that much.  I like to enjoy my games, and micromanaging my character constantly eating and drinking and forgetting to sleep and save often enough just isn't fun for me so I have never experienced the spawn rates there.

However, I've always thought the sheer amount of ammunition in the world is just ridiculous for a setting of 200 years later.  I want my weapons, ammunition and gear to MATTER.  I want to feel that panic and hesitation when all I have is a pipe rifle with three or four rounds.  However, this would mean the bullets actually have to matter more as well.  No more bullet sponges for me or for the enemies.  One .308 rifle round to the chest or head is going to bring an enemy down.  Period.  

Fallout Wanderer's Edition for Fallout 3 kind of did this really well and gave a sense of desperation.  I was constantly scavenging everything I could find just to get enough to sell and buy a few more rounds.  When I'm selling a bunch of pistols, rifles and raider armor for about 30 caps max just to buy four or five .38 rounds.... that just feels awesome to me.  

There would, of course, be ways to get more ammunition I guess.  For instance, if there is a heavily armed and supplied raider faction, they have a repurposed pre-war factory that is producing new junk (less effective and prone to jams) rounds for their weapons.  It would make stealth a huge asset as well to try and raid the factories yourself to try and get some bullets.

This might get boring after a while, but I think it would be a ton of fun.  Plus it would make melee weapons realistic to use.  More enemies would be using them and it wouldn't be absurd to charge in to battle with a machete as multiple enemies are firing fully automatic weapons at you...  You wouldn't HAVE to use a stealth build to use a bunch of melee weapons.  I think it could be a lot of fun. 


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@beyasal said:

@kyra said:
@beyasal said:
I also like exploring the game world, but for me continuously being in a combat situation kills off the experience while having to open the pipboy to micromanage my character does not.  I would much rather prefer considering all these factors to maximise the performance of my character than getting swamped by enemies like in fallout 4 to the point where I would yawn, open the console, type killall and continue on my merry way.
 For me , when too many things pile up breaks game flow. I do have water/food things hotkeyd, and its  less of an issue. And I am not fan of pipboy. I like healthy balance between everything. I do not mind combat, but I did originally alter spawn rates in FO4, on old survival, when new one came it actually messed up my game world to the point half map does nor re-spawn. Ever again. But then again it made game harder - less resources, and some areas spawn normal or get actually triggered outside respawn timers. I guess this glitch due to swapping between old and new survival mode for this one character has given me rather unique experience. 
  I was using a mod that decreased the spawn rate 8x but disabled it after the new survival mode was implemented stating that spawn rates had been significantly decreased.  I'm guessing that because the previous mod used despawned everything it took some time before anything actually started showing up, except for a few locations which for some reason or other instantaneously respawn,   By that time I already had so much caps on me that lack of resources wasn't really an issue.  But it was nice being able to actually walk around the commonwealth, being able to watch the sun setting over the ruins of the city without some annoying creature jumping out of the blue, making annoying noises, and killing off that moment. After that everything started respawning much faster which was quite a shame.  

I think for Blue-Eyes, the spawns are still a mess. You probably would like his game-world, I guess. There are areas in downtown that have not spawned after 400 hours or something.  I am not walking around ghost down, but for example   Bethesda spawns work fine on ghouls, but raiders  really do not like to re-spawn nor do creatures like Deathclaws, and super mutants do not re-spawn on all areas, only some. I know it's due to the glitch rather than  mod/betehsda. So even when I'd re-enable the mod on new characters - it wouldn't work. there are few other glitches like this on said character.  Those glitches are kind of good and I miss them on other characters. 

I liked hearing ambiance of metal sounds on downtown and all that. It is something i found, where less is kind of more. I like good combat, and probably more than you do, but same time I am explorer. I like though fights, but I wnat them to be less.. If that amkes sense. I want things be a challenge, but I want breather between those moments. There is a reason my follower has 2 shot mirv occasionally though. Its when i am tired of combat, so he does the sweep for me. And he does it fast. I make fun of the weapon, but I actually rarely do something with no reason (or no headcannons). Use of MIRV from x6 serves the purpose of ... what "killall" has for you. Just I found a different way of doing it. 


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@kyra said:

It is question, when will micromanagement become a  chore instead challenge ? Player should be motivated to improve, not punished for not  improving.

Bullseye.  This is exactly what kills a lot of "Survival" games for me.  Does the "realism" add to challenge, immersion, and a desire to move forward...or does it suck up every waking moment of my gameplay, constantly interrupting every other action with incessant demands to fix that, eat that, drink something, now I'm sick, oh!...I randomly fell walking along level ground and broke my ankle and it immediately became infected... 😡 Fun, fun, fun, right?

It should be as follows:  I know my character's needs in advance, and I have to plan to avoid issues (just like real life).  If I am properly prepared, I can quite smoothly overcome any issues (just like in real life).  No part of this should be "random".  Nor should anything result in "instant death".  It should be a system of (slowly-) compounding penalties that means the player has to take occasional logical steps to balance things out again.  (i.e. Shoot, I haven't eaten in 3 days.  My strength and stamina are suffering a -30% penalty!  I need to take time to forage or hunt today.  That will set me up for food for the next few days or so.  Problem solved.  Not: I'm in the middle of a hectic firefight.  Drat! the berries I ate 6 minutes ago have worn off, and now I'm taking continuous damage from starvation.  Let me duck behind that car and quickly eat these snack cakes while dodging rockets.  Now, I have to reload.  Oh, no! my gun broke into pieces.  I'll just quickly cannibalize this pistol for spare parts and rebuild it while while strafing back and forth to avoid incoming fire.  Nuts! I just contracted Gut Rot because I stepped in a puddle!  Let me fire at this enemy a few times before looking for a glowing blue plant I can use to craft a syringe that will cure the disease.  Then, I'll finish the combat.  Wow...this game is so "hardcore"...)

Note, I'm generalizing the mentality behind a lot of "Survival" type games, not directly relating to FO4.


Alright...I'm gonna count to -one-.


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Hmmm... They need to sit down and have a serious think, I find it extremely difficult to get lured into FO4. Only once I can say I was really into it when the character was based around a Nick Grimes type... Boring goody two shoes, I find myself changing character types a lot. The illusion of choice ruined it also, one character that would be unbelievable in Fallout 4 is Kruger from Elysium, I've tried playing as him but the quests just kill it every time or it's the dialogue options.

For future games they need a story that has a good path,anti hero path,villain or the choice to betray and go over to the dark side options, an Anakin Skywalker moment. Bounty hunter missions, not always requiring a kill, ability to become a slaver, mercenary, caravan guard, medic, drugs mule or dealer, having to create chem's for a shipment within a certain time frame and depending on your charisma or reputation,they may double cross you or fighting out of ambushes from rival's or something as simple as finding a missing person, even being a thief or scavenger... hired to recover historic items, little things that add flavor and variety. 

I liked the settlement idea, its grown on me and the character builds with added options with tattoos etc but one thing I can't get my head around... has it not sunk into Bethesda's head that we want backpacks, a little research will show, everyone wants backpacks for the sake of immersion. Simple google check will show the most in demand types that people want. The same with colour schemes for clothes and armour, the option to change their colour.

The survival aspect for hardcore gamer's should be just that, there are mods that fix this but weapons needing repaired overtime and armour I personally love, and weapons need a major rethink, again... wacky weapons has saved this for me, I've made some weapons that at least resemble something modern, again its down to peoples own personal taste. Maybe make hunting more of a must, food is lying around everywhere in the commonwealth, maybe make a tin of cram a complete luxury and fishing, hunting more of a priority and longer waiting times for crops to grow.

The dialogue I find patronizing, it has the same tone or delivery as those folk who patronize disabled people by being too nice or too politically correct, it needs to be more mature, TW3 nails this on the head, dialogue and delivery is unbelievable.

For me to be immersed in FO4, its usually when I'm role playing a walking dead theme, where I'm building settlements and the raiders are saviors and... that's about it, anything else i lose interest with the dialogue, that leaves me wanting to split my characters head in two with a [censored] meat cleaver, it bugs me. 

Maybe add in a horse for travel or a transport system for those that would like that option, the vertibirds are brilliant in FO4, especially the mod that gives you your own personal bird. So keeping those along with artillery, that could do with a little work.An airstrike mod gives the game another edge, would be cool to have that option available in the next game, I'm sure a drone dropping mini nukes could be believable.

FO4 is what it is today due to modders, so Bethesda should use them to their advantage and get suggestions from them, even employ them because with Cyberpunk coming and my experience with FO4 as a whole... I don't care about Fallout 5.


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@kyra said:


I liked hearing ambiance of metal sounds on downtown and all that. It is something i found, where less is kind of more. I like good combat, and probably more than you do, but same time I am explorer. I like though fights, but I wnat them to be less.. If that amkes sense. I want things be a challenge, but I want breather between those moments. There is a reason my follower has 2 shot mirv occasionally though. Its when i am tired of combat, so he does the sweep for me. And he does it fast. I make fun of the weapon, but I actually rarely do something with no reason (or no headcannons). Use of MIRV from x6 serves the purpose of ... what "killall" has for you. Just I found a different way of doing it. 

 

that's the problem with fallout 4, the pacing is terrible


So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them


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@fallout_ste2016 said:

For future games they need a story that has a good path,anti hero path,villain or the choice to betray and go over to the dark side options, an Anakin Skywalker moment. Bounty hunter missions, not always requiring a kill, ability to become a slaver, mercenary, caravan guard, medic, drugs mule or dealer, having to create chem's for a shipment within a certain time frame and depending on your charisma or reputation,they may double cross you or fighting out of ambushes from rival's or something as simple as finding a missing person, even being a thief or scavenger... hired to recover historic items, little things that add flavor and variety. 

While I totally agree with this, it's something that players have been arguing for since...forever.  Frankly, I don't think Bethesda is ever intending to do anything other than direct, linear scenarios.  Even the earliest Beth games did nothing to "react" to the player creating an evil character...they just didn't do anything to make it feel out-of-place.  Access to the Dark Brotherhood, perhaps.  But townsfolk would still be all happy to see you.  Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind kept things pretty "neutral business" in tone.  Beginning with Oblivion, it really seemed that being a total, vicious scumbag was going completely against the grain.  Truly, even fantastic rpg's of the past did nothing to really cater the game to "evil" characters.  Fallout 1-2, Baldur's Gate 2, KotOR 1.  I feel that Bethesda games are just begging for this, though.    

@fallout_ste2016 said:

The dialogue I find patronizing, it has the same tone or delivery as those folk who patronize disabled people by being too nice or too politically correct, it needs to be more mature, TW3 nails this on the head, dialogue and delivery is unbelievable.

Patronizing is a good way to look at it.  It is like being forced to read "Young Adult" literature.  I think it's much better than writing in Oblivion, FO3, or Skyrim.  But when looking at TW3, you're looking at the work of a professional, published writer guiding the process.  I'm not sure who Beth actually gets to write their stuff, but I don't think it's only one person.  Some of it is fairly good, sometimes.  The dream sequences in Morrowind.  The Mythic Dawn texts in Oblivion.  The Brotherhood records in FO4.  The vast majority of the writing (especially dialogue) lacks any sort of depth or delicacy.  It's largely direct, benign exposition.  (I've learned to just expect it and ignore it, but it's something I would love to see improved.)


Alright...I'm gonna count to -one-.


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If CDPR had such gud writers, you would think they would think up a storyline that that doesn't involve you playing as Gerald 😆

Trust me, Bethesda writing is way superior and more mature.


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.


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@Capt_Sensib1e said:

😆
Trust me, Bethesda writing is way superior and more mature.

 No, no. I have no idea where you got that, but false. Bethesda`s would have chickens before approaching the Witcher`s storylines, especially 1 and 2 (haven`t tried 3 yet) they are way too `pc` and feminised-whipped to even go there were CD Projekt red are not, that`s why their stories are so good.


I don`t need you to agree with me. I have the Courage to stand alone.


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@Plebeian said:

@kyra said:
It is question, when will micromanagement become a  chore instead challenge ? Player should be motivated to improve, not punished for not  improving.
Bullseye.  This is exactly what kills a lot of "Survival" games for me.  Does the "realism" add to challenge, immersion, and a desire to move forward...or does it suck up every waking moment of my gameplay, constantly interrupting every other action with incessant demands to fix that, eat that, drink something, now I'm sick, oh!...I randomly fell walking along level ground and broke my ankle and it immediately became infected... 😡 Fun, fun, fun, right?

You forgot insomnia as a disease after you do too many small saves in a short time frame.   Which i resort to  given the bipolar nature of the game.   Some days I can run no issues for hours.   Some days...its not a question of if I get vats freeze of doom if not complete dump crash....but when and how often.  

 I


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@Plebeian said:

Note, I'm generalizing the mentality behind a lot of "Survival" type games, not directly relating to FO4.

 Exactly why I not like Survival mode, it not like real life at all, make believe things to con player into thinking your really surviving. Being out there and doing what game does is not like the survival levels you describe, that wildest fantasy of game writers. Yes check you have food, ammo, weapon is good and other thing needed, most the time nothing happen, no one get too tired or lose strength because not eaten today, that silly idea (not yours the writers) Getting sick is not that common when out and some medicines are there for you if you need.

Very funny what game makers think, obviously have no real idea?


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since about survival and immersion...maybe a rebalance on  stimpaks in order.  Unless mending a broken limb they are useless. The heal rate is gimped to the point you can be better off using food and saving the stims to build up and sell  (one of my cap farming things).  I also role true solo when on my own feet firmly enough...so not stimpak spamming on companions somewhere starting in the 20's.  

I can see they didn't want the healing rush of non-survival. However they kind of went overboard really.  

That and its heal limbs effect can be iffy.   I tend to roll non-PA builds.  PA only for rad areas where a few hits expected as well.  More on the glass cannon side...lucky shot breaks a limb,  things go down hill fast.    I can count more cases of crippling leading to death scene shortly after than crippling and living the fight to use a stimpak.  


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@Capt_Sensib1e said:

If CDPR had such gud writers, you would think they would think up a storyline that that doesn't involve you playing as Gerald 😆
Trust me, Bethesda writing is way superior and more mature.

 Capt_Sensible, sometimes you are a Capt_NeedMoreCoffee 

Geralt is a book character and the games made to bring his universe from books to interactive world - that games are.  Polish game developer CDR never intended any other than bring Polish authors book character into knowledge of wider audience.  And tehy succeeded on that pretty well. Not only some people learned there exists Poland as European country (I kid you not!),  audience also learned its base don whole series of pretty good books. 

What comes to Bethesda writers and my true and  opinion of them since Oblivion, I'd get   perma ban and I like you guys too much to get that happening.  I think Bethesda writers are [Pretty Well Censored that just Censored is not enough]. 

Disclaimer : No Bethesda writers nor synths were harmed during making this post. 


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@FreyjaIceDragon said:

@Plebeian said:
Note, I'm generalizing the mentality behind a lot of "Survival" type games, not directly relating to FO4.
 Exactly why I not like Survival mode, it not like real life at all, make believe things to con player into thinking your really surviving. Being out there and doing what game does is not like the survival levels you describe, that wildest fantasy of game writers. Yes check you have food, ammo, weapon is good and other thing needed, most the time nothing happen, no one get too tired or lose strength because not eaten today, that silly idea (not yours the writers) Getting sick is not that common when out and some medicines are there for you if you need.
Very funny what game makers think, obviously have no real idea?

 Depends. When you re balance some things - like the rates of thirst, timescales and things, it comes pretty neat. There was one flaw in New Vegas on their Hard Mode that bothered me, and it is NOT New vegas fault alone. Other survival games do that too. When you have survivalist perks, your food would heal more and faster than stimpaks. "Wait here deathclaw, I run behind that stone, eat some odd junk that tases like dirt and sand, but heals my wounds wuick" ,,,, I rather see stimpaks do tehir job faster. Stimpaks are something from the Falloutuniverse that does not have to make sense in our world. But they  work within their world and my character  is in THAT world, and it is cool iof that world has rapid heal medical device. Fine, makes sense in THAT world. But food healing better than that makes no sense. Seen this on other games too where medicine heals less than cooked rat. 


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@kyra said:

@Capt_Sensib1e said:
If CDPR had such gud writers, you would think they would think up a storyline that that doesn't involve you playing as Gerald 😆 Trust me, Bethesda writing is way superior and more mature.
 Capt_Sensible, sometimes you are a Capt_NeedMoreCoffee 
Geralt is a book character and the games made to bring his universe from books to interactive world - that games are.  Polish game developer CDR never intended any other than bring Polish authors book character into knowledge of wider audience.  And tehy succeeded on that pretty well. Not only some people learned there exists Poland as European country (I kid you not!),  audience also learned its base don whole series of pretty good books. 
What comes to Bethesda writers and my true and  opinion of them since Oblivion, I'd get   perma ban and I like you guys too much to get that happening.  I think Bethesda writers are [Pretty Well Censored that just Censored is not enough]. 
Disclaimer : No Bethesda writers nor synths were harmed during making this post. 

 

The supposedly poor writing is partially deliberate, they can write well when they want to, there were some very well written quests in especially Morrowind and Oblivion, but these generally tend to be side content and not interwoven with each other or with the main quest.  For the type of games Bethesda makes this actually works as it also gives you as the player ample amount of space to make up your own stories while giving you enough anchor points to be able to guide you in the story you make (I hope that made sense).

You probably know by now what I think of the writing in fallout 4, the ironic part is that they were listening to people who were saying Bethesda cannot write while ignoring the people who were playing their games because they were happy with how their stories did not impose itself upon the player and allowed for quite an immense amount of creativity on the part of the player.

As for the Witcher series; they have to be well written, they are trying to tell a specific story, they do give quite a lot of options for the player but all those options are directly related to a fixed story about a fixed character, it is a completely different type of approach to that taken by Bethesda, I personally prefer the Bethesda approach (and one of the big reasons why their making their story more restrictive and imposing in fallout 4 is something I will never be happy about).

ps: but if you take a look at the overall lore of the TES series, it blows anything else out of the water, including Witcher lore, I can say that in that regards they (Bethesda) are the Tolkien of frpgs.


So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them


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@kyra said:

@FreyjaIceDragon said:
@Plebeian said:
Note, I'm generalizing the mentality behind a lot of "Survival" type games, not directly relating to FO4.
 Exactly why I not like Survival mode, it not like real life at all, make believe things to con player into thinking your really surviving. Being out there and doing what game does is not like the survival levels you describe, that wildest fantasy of game writers. Yes check you have food, ammo, weapon is good and other thing needed, most the time nothing happen, no one get too tired or lose strength because not eaten today, that silly idea (not yours the writers) Getting sick is not that common when out and some medicines are there for you if you need. Very funny what game makers think, obviously have no real idea?
 Depends. When you re balance some things - like the rates of thirst, timescales and things, it comes pretty neat. There was one flaw in New Vegas on their Hard Mode that bothered me, and it is NOT New vegas fault alone. Other survival games do that too. When you have survivalist perks, your food would heal more and faster than stimpaks. "Wait here deathclaw, I run behind that stone, eat some odd junk that tases like dirt and sand, but heals my wounds wuick" ,,,, I rather see stimpaks do tehir job faster. Stimpaks are something from the Falloutuniverse that does not have to make sense in our world. But they  work within their world and my character  is in THAT world, and it is cool iof that world has rapid heal medical device. Fine, makes sense in THAT world. But food healing better than that makes no sense. Seen this on other games too where medicine heals less than cooked rat. 

 

but it is a perk, it is optional.  If it were in fallout 4 though and fallout 4 had a survivalist perk tree, you would be forced to take that perk because it would be integrated into increasing your survivalist skill ;)


So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them


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@beyasal said:

 
but it is a perk, it is optional.  If it were in fallout 4 though and fallout 4 had a survivalist perk tree, you would be forced to take that perk because it would be integrated into increasing your survivalist skill ;)

 I do not mean here to single out NV, but the logic in general.  I do feel I need the perk to get maximum healing and recovery. It does not matter how game gives me the  healing. Trough medicine or other means, but Hardmode in NV (or many other similar typed of games) is more brutal on player (and good it is). I would have liked if  that amount of healing would have come form medicine, but I suppose in NV they wanted cooking to matter and be two fold. I can see reasoning behind it, just... I would have preffered something else. Like food giving me - let say  just resistances, or allow me to be well hydrated longer, or feel fell fed longer, or allow me to get less damage necause "I feel good with full belly!" or "Feel more nimble on feet because that rat was goooooooood". Not sure how to explain it better. I do like food giving me some funky buffs, but i do not like food healing me more than medicine. However getting  max healing out of game did not feel optional. I might be a role-player, but if I am to tackle tougher  enemies, I better use what game gives me !  


@beyasal said:

The supposedly poor writing is partially deliberate, they can write well when they want to, there were some very well written quests in especially Morrowind and Oblivion, but these generally tend to be side content and not interwoven with each other or with the main quest.  For the type of games Bethesda makes this actually works as it also gives you as the player ample amount of space to make up your own stories while giving you enough anchor points to be able to guide you in the story you make (I hope that made sense).

 Deliberate bad writing can also look like its aimed  to be  "just it was all planned". however I do not feel they have focused on making things ... *snaps fingers*  feel tailored. I feel as if I am just on measuring stage or adjustment part and not wearing a full suit.  The caps are needed to have good player driven head-cannon story, but a game needs also anchors and I feel anchors are missing on many places.   And writing lore and writing  singular story are two different traits. A good lore writer, a good book writer necessarily does not make a good interactive story writer. Same way like a good book and story writer does not make a good screenplay writer and there is reason there are whole different set of people writing theatrical, cinematic or often even game screenplays. 

I like to be able to add head-cannons and build my world, but game does need solid anchors and of course  Bethesda is capable doing it they can hire anyone they want. They are not a tiny studio that has to take what they have. 


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yes, but it does give you the option to not take it, that is what I liked about the old system where perks and skills were separate, you can increase a skill but you can also ignore perks that could make the game easier for you, something you cannot do in fallout 4 due to how the skills and perks have been integrated, you have to either accept the perk to increase your skill, or you have to make do without the skill so as not to have to take the perk.

But even in Fallout New Vegas stimpaks are so plentiful that after a while you don't bother with the food but take a stimpak. 

I think the major problem is abundance of resources in these games, when there is abundance there really is not much need for choice.


So Vivec, who had a grain of Ayem's mercy, set about to teach Molag Bal in the ways of belly-magic. They took their spears out and compared them


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@beyasal said:

I think the major problem is abundance of resources in these games, when there is abundance there really is not much need for choice.

 That probably is the key issue we should have started  the whole thing *laughs* ...  


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